Curse

icantthinkofonerightnow · Aug 05, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Well sometimes I have to leave (have to go somewhere, people come over, etc.) and I don't think this is anything that should be penalized.

Kendar Muert · Aug 05, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Master of Puppets, ive seen some really good warriors who use healing breeze. So i see no reason to leave. I NEVER leave on purpose even if my team is crap. I may sit there and kill people who atk me first, but i wont actually leave. Even if im the last person on my team, and everyone else has left i wont leave. Maybe thats bieng stubborn on my part, but NOTHING justifies leaving, because you dont know what another character has up his sleeve...what if one of those monks on the 4 monk team is a 55 and another a smiter? You have a chance of winning several matches. What if that necro with the "newb build" happens to have grenths balance and uses it to advantage because of his crappy armor? My point is that you can never know what can happen at the start of the match, and even if your halfway through and the team sucks, its your DUTY as a vet player to show how RA should be played. Which isnt done by leaving.

Zui · Aug 06, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

Master of Puppets, ive seen some really good warriors who use healing breeze. So i see no reason to leave. I NEVER leave on purpose even if my team is crap. I may sit there and kill people who atk me first, but i wont actually leave. Even if im the last person on my team, and everyone else has left i wont leave. Maybe thats bieng stubborn on my part, but NOTHING justifies leaving, because you dont know what another character has up his sleeve...what if one of those monks on the 4 monk team is a 55 and another a smiter? You have a chance of winning several matches. What if that necro with the "newb build" happens to have grenths balance and uses it to advantage because of his crappy armor? My point is that you can never know what can happen at the start of the match, and even if your halfway through and the team sucks, its your DUTY as a vet player to show how RA should be played. Which isnt done by leaving.

You just lost all credibility with your first sentence.

Kendar Muert · Aug 06, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

I have? I didnt realize that creativity lost points with some people. Personally, I dont use healing breeze often, or as a main skill, and use it mainly as a mask on the rare occasion i do use it. Using a certain skill too easily brands someone as "a noob" or "no good" imho, and it needs to stop. If you got completely owned by a war with healing breeze im willing to bet you wouldnt be so nonchalant about calling people down for using it. Granted, alot of noobs use healing breeze and therefore it is sometimes, actually often considered a noob skill, but that doesnt change the fact that judgement cannot be blanket- its a player by player basis thing. There is a guy in my guild who uses it to great effect even with very low heal prayers, but he primarily utilizes endure pain and defy pain. He hardly ever takes damage, so this works well for him. I am willing to bet that, if given a chance, he could likely destroy most classes, so long as they arent pure antiwar.

Zui · Aug 06, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

I have? I didnt realize that creativity lost points with some people.

Creativity is good. Sub-par builds are not. Plus, since you brought up creativity, how creative is it to run Healing Breeze on a Warrior/Monk? I mean, there was even a Premade that had Healing Breeze...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

Personally, I dont use healing breeze often, or as a main skill, and use it mainly as a mask on the rare occasion i do use it. Using a certain skill too easily brands someone as "a noob" or "no good" imho, and it needs to stop.

When said skill sucks in the way it's being used, branding someone a noob for using it is 100% acceptable. If I used Mending, as a monk, against a pure spike team, would I be branded a noob? You bet. Why? Because the *most* that person could possibly get out of my mending is about 8 health durring the spike, and I'd loose 20 energy per minute, or 25% of my total energy gained per minute, and I haven't even factored in the cost to cast Mending on the guy yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

If you got completely owned by a war with healing breeze im willing to bet you wouldnt be so nonchalant about calling people down for using it.

1) I would not be owned by a Warrior that's running Healing Breeze, I do not 1 vs 1.

2) Any team that I'm playing in, outside of RA would not loose to a team that had a Warrior running Healing Breeze on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

Granted, alot of noobs use healing breeze and therefore it is sometimes, actually often considered a noob skill, but that doesnt change the fact that judgement cannot be blanket- its a player by player basis thing.

Healing Breeze is a good skill, on paper. In practical application however, you can't know exactly who the target is, and that they'll take enough damage without dying to make sure Healing Breeze has it's maximum effect, or have enough Degen on them to make Healing Breeze worth it.

Oh, that's for a Monk running Healing Breeze by the way, let's look at a Warrior running it, and focus on the Energy and Attributes of a Warrior.

Warriors should run 12+1+3 weapon mastery. This is 97 attribute points. That's almost half of your 200! Now, what else are Warriors going to want to run? Some Strength, obviously, since you will be running a speed buff, and every Warrior speed buff aside from "Charge!" [Elite] is linked to Strength(and of course, Charge + Hex Breaker = Ownage, so we're not running Healing Breeze on that guy). Likely some Tactics too, since we all know Healing Signet on Warriors is ownage. So, now you've just used up almost all of your Attribute points, just on Warrior stuff.

But hey, lets say we don't run Healing Signet, and instead run Healing Breeze. So now we spec say, 9 into Healing Prayers, since that's a nice breakpoint for Healing Breeze. Awsome, we have a Healing Breeze that's going to heal for 140 Health over 10 seconds, but it costs 10 energy. So, we find we can only use this, what, 4 times a minute with out base energy regeneration! W00t, we heal 560 health every minute, assuming no healing is ever wasted! Awsomeness!

But now we have no energy for anything else, and alot of our awsome healing, in reality, is wasted because people change targets, the guy we put Healing Breeze on dies, or is healed to full(by the monk, or by Healing Breeze). So, we're probably going to get, 1/2 of that out of it! w00t, 280 health a minute! Two uses of Healing Signet at 10 spec is 230 health, over 8 seconds, for no energy. Wow. That's awsome. We can use Healing Signet, and heal ourselvs for so much more, since our Healing Breeze is almost entirely useless in practical application.

Same goes for Mending. Mending has been used in the Playoffs. But, that's because the people who used it knew their opponent, and wanted to counter their degen build. Making Mending extremelely effecient, because they knew what their opponents were running. In practical application though, Mending is going to be a total waste of a skill slot, energy, and attribute points 95% of the time or more. The same goes for Healing Breeze, it's just not good enough to bring over somthing else 95+% of the time.

Then we have this whole "Role of a Warrior" thing, and that's kind of like "Zomg I kill things!" Which, is exactly what Warriors should do. They shouldn't be greatly concerned about healing other people. The reason they bring Healing Signet is for some solo NPC ganking ability, and of course to take some pressure off of their Monks when needed. I'm sure they'd bring Healing Breeze if it were better than Healing Signet in terms of how much it can heal per minute, for how much energy and attribute investment. But, it's not, and Warriors like to have their secondary open for cool stuff that actualy helps them do their job better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

There is a guy in my guild who uses it to great effect even with very low heal prayers, but he primarily utilizes endure pain and defy pain. He hardly ever takes damage, so this works well for him. I am willing to bet that, if given a chance, he could likely destroy most classes, so long as they arent pure antiwar.

Lol...

Defy Pain is a joke, there's absolutly no good reason to run it in PvP, there are far better Elites that help you do your job.

I'm not dismissing Endure Pain though, but it sounds the way he's using it is totaly wrong. It's useful so you can overextend a bit more safely, and in certain less-likely cases, to survive a spike. It's crap to give yourself more health for no reason at all because no one is attacking you, since you're not even a threat, and the highest armored guy out there, in addition to trying to keep yourself alive with most of your skillbar.

The reason he hardly ever takes damage, is he is not a threat, because he's not doing his job as a Warrior.

As for your last sentence here, this is not a 1 vs 1 game. It's a team game. So him being able to solo anyone is really not that important, unless it's your teams plan to have a guy off solo ganking NPCs, or harrassing a flagger. In that case, you don't just want solo-survivability though, you need your offensive split to be threatning enough that they actualy send people back to deal with it, otherwise the other end of your split is likely going to get rolled because of a numbers advantage. Making Healing Signet on a Warrior that's off soloing NPCs a better option, since he can still have a Utility from his secondary, and focus on damage/mobility.

I will admit though that some players do dismiss certain skills and builds without actualy looking at the roll they can serve effectively, and the roll they're being employed in. They just go "Omg noob skill, what a noob!" I hope you can see that I've not done this with Healing Breeze, since it is infact a good skill under the right circumstances. You just don't see those circumstances enough to justify it in normal ladder play(or TA/RA/HA), and I think the only place it's ever going to be worth a skill slot is in Tournament Play(maybe), and of course PvE, where your opponents are much more predictable.

tASE · Aug 06, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

To get to TA you need to get a winning streak in RA btw...
So i hate RA because there are so many noobs and quitters, and i can't move on. That sucks

Kendar Muert · Aug 06, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Creativity is good. Sub-par builds are not. Plus, since you brought up creativity, how creative is it to run Healing Breeze on a Warrior/Monk? I mean, there was even a Premade that had Healing Breeze...

When said skill sucks in the way it's being used, branding someone a noob for using it is 100% acceptable. If I used Mending, as a monk, against a pure spike team, would I be branded a noob? You bet. Why? Because the *most* that person could possibly get out of my mending is about 8 health durring the spike, and I'd loose 20 energy per minute, or 25% of my total energy gained per minute, and I haven't even factored in the cost to cast Mending on the guy yet.

1) I would not be owned by a Warrior that's running Healing Breeze, I do not 1 vs 1.

2) Any team that I'm playing in, outside of RA would not loose to a team that had a Warrior running Healing Breeze on it.

Healing Breeze is a good skill, on paper. In practical application however, you can't know exactly who the target is, and that they'll take enough damage without dying to make sure Healing Breeze has it's maximum effect, or have enough Degen on them to make Healing Breeze worth it.

Oh, that's for a Monk running Healing Breeze by the way, let's look at a Warrior running it, and focus on the Energy and Attributes of a Warrior.

Warriors should run 12+1+3 weapon mastery. This is 97 attribute points. That's almost half of your 200! Now, what else are Warriors going to want to run? Some Strength, obviously, since you will be running a speed buff, and every Warrior speed buff aside from "Charge!" [Elite] is linked to Strength(and of course, Charge + Hex Breaker = Ownage, so we're not running Healing Breeze on that guy). Likely some Tactics too, since we all know Healing Signet on Warriors is ownage. So, now you've just used up almost all of your Attribute points, just on Warrior stuff.

But hey, lets say we don't run Healing Signet, and instead run Healing Breeze. So now we spec say, 9 into Healing Prayers, since that's a nice breakpoint for Healing Breeze. Awsome, we have a Healing Breeze that's going to heal for 140 Health over 10 seconds, but it costs 10 energy. So, we find we can only use this, what, 4 times a minute with out base energy regeneration! W00t, we heal 560 health every minute, assuming no healing is ever wasted! Awsomeness!

But now we have no energy for anything else, and alot of our awsome healing, in reality, is wasted because people change targets, the guy we put Healing Breeze on dies, or is healed to full(by the monk, or by Healing Breeze). So, we're probably going to get, 1/2 of that out of it! w00t, 280 health a minute! Two uses of Healing Signet at 10 spec is 230 health, over 8 seconds, for no energy. Wow. That's awsome. We can use Healing Signet, and heal ourselvs for so much more, since our Healing Breeze is almost entirely useless in practical application.

Same goes for Mending. Mending has been used in the Playoffs. But, that's because the people who used it knew their opponent, and wanted to counter their degen build. Making Mending extremelely effecient, because they knew what their opponents were running. In practical application though, Mending is going to be a total waste of a skill slot, energy, and attribute points 95% of the time or more. The same goes for Healing Breeze, it's just not good enough to bring over somthing else 95+% of the time.

Then we have this whole "Role of a Warrior" thing, and that's kind of like "Zomg I kill things!" Which, is exactly what Warriors should do. They shouldn't be greatly concerned about healing other people. The reason they bring Healing Signet is for some solo NPC ganking ability, and of course to take some pressure off of their Monks when needed. I'm sure they'd bring Healing Breeze if it were better than Healing Signet in terms of how much it can heal per minute, for how much energy and attribute investment. But, it's not, and Warriors like to have their secondary open for cool stuff that actualy helps them do their job better.

Lol...

Defy Pain is a joke, there's absolutly no good reason to run it in PvP, there are far better Elites that help you do your job.

I'm not dismissing Endure Pain though, but it sounds the way he's using it is totaly wrong. It's useful so you can overextend a bit more safely, and in certain less-likely cases, to survive a spike. It's crap to give yourself more health for no reason at all because no one is attacking you, since you're not even a threat, and the highest armored guy out there, in addition to trying to keep yourself alive with most of your skillbar.

The reason he hardly ever takes damage, is he is not a threat, because he's not doing his job as a Warrior.

As for your last sentence here, this is not a 1 vs 1 game. It's a team game. So him being able to solo anyone is really not that important, unless it's your teams plan to have a guy off solo ganking NPCs, or harrassing a flagger. In that case, you don't just want solo-survivability though, you need your offensive split to be threatning enough that they actualy send people back to deal with it, otherwise the other end of your split is likely going to get rolled because of a numbers advantage. Making Healing Signet on a Warrior that's off soloing NPCs a better option, since he can still have a Utility from his secondary, and focus on damage/mobility.

I will admit though that some players do dismiss certain skills and builds without actualy looking at the roll they can serve effectively, and the roll they're being employed in. They just go "Omg noob skill, what a noob!" I hope you can see that I've not done this with Healing Breeze, since it is infact a good skill under the right circumstances. You just don't see those circumstances enough to justify it in normal ladder play(or TA/RA/HA), and I think the only place it's ever going to be worth a skill slot is in Tournament Play(maybe), and of course PvE, where your opponents are much more predictable.

1.) What i meant by creativity was that it is creative to use healing breeze more as a support skill than "OMFG YOU CANT KILL ME- Ive got HB!!"- which would be retarded.

2.)The reason he takes little damage is not because he doesnt do his job as a war. When i say damage, i dont mean bieng hit, i mean suffering any large amount of health loss. Like you said, every skill has the potential to be good in the right setting.

3.)I am not talking about a 1v1 such as scrimmage. In any normal fight in a team setting there will be 1v1 all over the map..a bunch of mini matches between people. The exception to this is HA, where its generally team strategy vs other teams strategy. AB could be team strategy, but normally each group, and sometimes individuals, are off doing thier own thing and dont play that way. Most good players dont allow themselves to be singled out too much, but if an enemy player is in the right place at the right time, such as at a spawning point when no other team members are there but an enemy is, you could get killed.

luxor9 · Aug 06, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by icantthinkofonerightnow

Well sometimes I have to leave (have to go somewhere, people come over, etc.) and I don't think this is anything that should be penalized.

then read what I said will ya?

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

Nah I wouldnt leave. I didnt say I'd leave if i saw any Wammo. I have been in groups with wammos that were actually not that bad(attacked the right targets,had proper builds, called stuff) I dont leave right away . But if I see them using Mending or healing breeze or riposte or something or with stupid shit like full knights armor then I'm leaving. And no I dont leave if there arent any monks on the team.

And all your "omg you're ruining it for everyone else" stuff is lame... What, the person cant just go back to RA and enter battle again?

In your post you said you played a touch ranger and if you ask me its more people like you that ruin RA, running all those exploit, cookie-cutter, easy-to-play builds to farm faction

your needlessly trying to start an argument why? I'm making a suggestion here that would help alot of people. I'm sorry if a quitter such as yourself has no place in discussion here because you are in fact part of the problem.
I think it's a great idea first off to have the lvl 20 req for RA and TA.

As for I'm running a cookie cutter touch ranger. What is a person supposed to do when they figure out a good skill combo? stop using it I guess if your in charge. My first character I ever made was a w/n. In my mind he would be strong with high armour and a life stealing ability from necro's blood magic. I soon came to realize that warriors just didn't have the mana and it was actually the ranger that this style was suited for. I had this build in mind before I even played the damn game so when I see it's possible I use it. kill me.

The quitters are quitting some good teams without even knowing it because they're close minded, going into battle already thinking.. god there better not be a noob wammo here and if I see knights armour I'm gone!! The fact that it's even possible to just quit a match doesn't seem wrong to anyone?

Aug 08, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Umm I don't get this idea at all. How hard is it to get anothe rmatch in RA? Let's see. I leave, that takes 5 secs; I hit enter battle, then max 25 more secs to get in a game. Yeah we should definately make better players suffer the ignorance of worse players because it can take 30 seconds to get another match in RA!
Bottom line, as someone who monks in RA. RA is the dumps. Anything goes: any builds, any trash talking, leaving etc. Thats what makes it worth anything; you can go be a total jerk and its fine because everyone else is(whether they know it or not)...

master_of_puppets · Aug 08, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

Master of Puppets, ive seen some really good warriors who use healing breeze. So i see no reason to leave. I NEVER leave on purpose even if my team is crap. I may sit there and kill people who atk me first, but i wont actually leave. Even if im the last person on my team, and everyone else has left i wont leave. Maybe thats bieng stubborn on my part, but NOTHING justifies leaving, because you dont know what another character has up his sleeve...what if one of those monks on the 4 monk team is a 55 and another a smiter? You have a chance of winning several matches. What if that necro with the "newb build" happens to have grenths balance and uses it to advantage because of his crappy armor? My point is that you can never know what can happen at the start of the match, and even if your halfway through and the team sucks, its your DUTY as a vet player to show how RA should be played. Which isnt done by leaving.

I have never ever lost to a team that had a W/Mo in it in HA/Tombs, GvG or TA.

lagrand1 · Aug 08, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

im not ashamed to say i leave on the first sign of noobetry. If I see something player not lvl20, a warrior with noob armor setup ill leave before the match starts. If I find ppl doing dumb stuff and we win, I leave before next battle.

Then you are rude and selfish. By joining and becoming part of a team, you need to do your best in that group. After the fight is over, even if you win you can leave. If you want to avoid noob behavior, stay out of noob arena.

RhanoctJocosa · May 05, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Butanananowski

incompentent** and i agree.

however, i try not to leave no matter how bleak the outcome looks (except in those stupid cases of 4 monks >.<). oftentimes im surprised by how well a build works, even if it looks horrible from a glance.

\m/ >_< \m/ rock on.

incompetent?

Zui's posts are ftw.

I, and many many other players, leave if:
- No form of healing. This doesn't always apply, however, as you might totally luck out and get like 4 hex Necros all /Rt with some nice buffing/healing, which, in that case, you will most likely roll every team you come up against.
- General bad builds, like healing monks (don't argue), the good old wammo (and I don't mean Purge Sig/Mend Touch, etc.) and something like a necro with a pet and pet attacks.
- Bad calling and awareness. If you're pressuring a monk who has their team relatively under control when your monk is getting absolutely beaten on then I ask you to change your ways or stop PvPing. This happened the other day, when a BlindSurge ele was nuking a monk with orb and shit when our team were all pretty much <50% getting pressured by Two thumpers and a BA ranger.

Probably forgot stuff, but oh well. In short, there's nothing wrong with leaving RA matches and all that would come from ANet stopping you from doing so would be some "omfgs", "you've gotta be kidding", "ffs", "-__-"

Rawr! HF

Stayfrosty · May 06, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I totally disagree, Ra is for testing builds. If you want to have your team with a healer a non W/mo go to team arenas and form your own team.
ANYONE that leaves before the match starts should have a 10 minute buffer at least before they can enter again, if they are leaving for a legit reason such as something to do in real life they wont even feel the 10 minutes. If someone does leave like this they should be replaced with a henchman AT THE VERY LEAST.

To the breeze bashers shutup this is a game and its random arenas the only way for people to learn is by playing and learning how things work... if you leave they are going to continue as they will equate the loss to the teams being stacked and not a poor skillbar. Dont want to deal with these people read above and make a team in TA

Im diveloping a sword assassin build and have had no less than 20 matches in a row with an afk or quitter as im typing this up, it it very annoying,

Dont flaimbait people by bashing skills EVERY skill has a use I dont care what you say its a game deal with it.

Ecklipze · May 06, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

You do realise RA is like the lowest forms of PvP. Right?

The way you guys debate about this makes me think otherwise.

holababe · May 06, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

@luxor9

In your first post you said people join then leave just to break a team's winning streak. The same team goes through all the battles, so that can't happen.

Mylon · May 06, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

RA leavers do need to be punished. The current system has a large number of people that attempt to sync join for easier wins which not only defeats the point of RA and is cheating, but also griefs other players. Penalize people for quitting and retrying (with something as simple as a 100 faction penalty (ZOMG, 2.5 kills, or 2 win bonuses!), or a 60 second timeout or both.

If you have to leave for whatever reason, it's no big deal. I mean, you had to leave anyway? What's a 60 second penalty? And 100 faction = a little more than half of a single win. Seriously, don't whine. If it has become a habit, then you're part of the problem.

If someone else has already quit on the team? The penalty shouldn't apply. But somehow I don't see Anet having that much foresight/wisdom. However, there is still the option to /resign.

samcobra · May 06, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

uh.... if your team sucks, you're wasting time. if you don't resign, you're wasting everyone else's time. In that case, rq is the way to go!

Mourne · May 06, 2007, 08:31 AM // 08:31

How are you going to punish RA leavers, you can't without having everyone else bitch at you for 10 years, because if you remember, we play Guild Wars, and everyone on Guild Wars bitches (Obviously not everyone, welcome to overexaggeration(sp?)).

I for one will not deny the fact that I actually leave if there isn't a monk or ritualist with healing skills on my team. I find that it is an absolute waste if I stay because all I would be getting in the end is maybe...a couple faction here or there. Oh wait I don't need faction because I'm uax? So the solution is leaving. I personally have pulled in atleast 120 gladiator points from just RA, not including TA. Guess how many of those 120 came from groups without a healer? I believe 5 or 6, and that is only because we had so much damage the other team couldn't handle it.

Point in all of this is, for most people playing without a healer is a total waste of time. I'm sorry if we disrupt your RA playtime

.

*lemming* · May 06, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Hi thread necromancy.

artay · May 06, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Unfortunately, you're both wrong.

I usualy play a boonprot in Random Arenas, although I do rarely play Random Arenas..

If my team is unable to win due to incompitent players, or poor random grouping(4 monks, for example). I leave. Sure, I could keep an incompitent team doing absolutly no damage to anyone (even though everyone is *trying* do deal damage) alive for 10+ minutes most of the time in Random Arenas. The question is, is it worth it? Why would I want to spend 10+ minutes of my time, with no chance of winning anytime soon, and if we do win with the prospect of all our games being 10+ minutes? The answer is, there is no reason why I'd *want* to waste my time.

You might as well go play team arenas, where you can choose your team members! Random Arenas is about adapting to what you've been given, not getting the perfect combination of professions, I've seen many a team with obscure players, Eg; 4 necromancers, 3 ritualists. And they won out of sheer determination.

As for Punishing leavers, 60 seconds seems fair, it'll teach them for ditching their team.